#15 We’re on a roll with an interview with a Papermaker

Reading Time: 31 minutes

Hello everyone! This is super late, but hopefully I have fixed all of the issues with technology! So, please let me post a belated Happy Chinese New Year, and well wishes and happy celebrations to those that celebrate Feast of Saint Brigid, Imbolc, Groundhog’s Day, and Black History Month!

Since you are getting both posts at once, on 02.02.2022. I hope everyone enjoys listening to Gage Manuel, as he kicks off these two episodes, with my first interview episode of the year! This episode is all about Papermills, and features Gage Manuel, a Lead Process Engineer, giving his expert opinion on the mills and the process-including the both the modern environmental changes that are being made, as well the socioeconomic effects-both past and present. Please join us for a relaxed conversation where in we are going to be discussing the processes behind the paper products you use everyday. 

TRANSCRIPT:

I guess most of my paper puns have been beaten to a pulp, so I guess it’s just time for Architecture, Coffee, & Ink.

15 second Intro song

Hello, this is Hollywood C. and you’re listening to Architecture, Coffee, & Ink. A podcast dedicated to introducing concepts, detailing out designs, and tackling the architecture you might not realize the meaning behind. I’m your hostess and I am here today to start introducing you to the designs that make you wonder why.

tag line:  So I ask you to brew your coffee, grab your sketch book and pen, and let’s begin.

Hello again everyone! Thank you so much for the understanding and the well wishes about starting the new semester! I am super excited to pick back up this week with another interview! And the first one of 2022!

But before we begin, you may have noticed I sped up the intro song. Some of you thought it was too long and some thought it was too short. So I have decided that I will be using the shorter intro song from now, and keep the full length song at the end of the episode like normal-this way everyone wins.

I have been snowed in for a while off and on for a while now, so I feel like I have really scratched my itch of winter activities, sledding, and hot chocolates. I was slightly worried I wasn’t going to make it back in time for school at the rate it was going. Personally, I am about ready to curl up with a horror novel or mystery novel and wait for spring. I am enjoying that sleepy curled up contended feeling in front of the fire on a lazy morning just a bit too much. It’s time to shock me with a nice dose of deadlines and mysteries, interviews, and heated conversations over coffee. So I think that school managed to start back up right in time.

I can always tell when I need to reel myself back into the real world based on how incredibly flowery my writing gets. I am admittedly an extremely flowery speaker and writer in general, but when once I start trying to re-write screen plays it’s time to cut me off. But before we begin, I again want to ask everyone today you send a kind thought, good karma, prayer, positive vibe, well wishes, to those who are/were affected this past few weeks in Tonga, where the volcano erupted. I am going to post an article about Relief efforts to both the Facebook page and group, so please check that out if you are able or wanting to get involved. There is several different organizations and various ways to help, or you can check with your local government and see if there is a local response as well. I know that Australia, New Zealand, and UNICEF have been leading several efforts.

This week, we are going to be talking about papermills. I wanted to just give a brief introduction about papermills and what they are.  Now if you have ever been by a papermill, you may have smelled the very distinctive smell. According to my father, it was the smell of biscuits and gravy. Actually this expression came from several of those who lived around the papermill. According to those who lived around the smell, the families and the workers that lived around my dad when he was young, those in the community always said it reminded them of the smell of biscuits and gravy, because that smell meant that they would eat on that day. When the smell was missing, it meant that the factory was closed, several of my relatives told me that they liked the smell, because it meant that people were being paid that day. And later on in the episode, I briefly mention a personal experience of ‘warm snow’, where I would sit outside and watch the ash fall, and listen to the small frogs and my grandmother telling me to always keep an aloe vera on the porch and teaching me how to tend plants. 

Now, I am fully aware that this is a controversial topic, due in no small part to the environmental effects. Including the falling ash that I now know isn’t as innocent as my childhood memories remember. But, with companies that focus on giving back to the community, and moving into recyclable fibers, we need to understand as both architects and individuals the entire effects of industries. Both on the environmental and the socioeconomical effects. I personal have had more lecture time devoted to the TVA-Tennessee Valley Authority, then other industries, but as I started the new semester, I wanted to start diving in the topic of social architects and what better way than to speak with an expert. Instead of devoting a lot of time in the beginning discussing papermills the way I normally do, with a lot of history and facts, I am going to let the expert talk, and then if needed, do a follow up episode. But at its basic form, a papermill is a factory devoted to making paper, including toilet paper, stationary, cardboard, depending on the individual location and the needs of the community, and resources.

But without further ado, please enjoy the interview.

Audio file 

Ep_2.3We’re on a roll with an interview of a Papermaker_mixdown.mp3 

Transcript 

Hollywood

All right, then now I’m really excited to welcome Gage Manuel onto the show today, so Gage got a degree in chemical engineering back in 2016 where he was actually back in our class with me and Racheal. My previous guest in in different departments obviously, but he has covered. Everything from internships and co-ops, and to his current role in lead process engineer. So welcome to the show. First and foremost, thank you for coming on today. 

Gage

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Hollywood

First, can you just tell us a little bit more about what exactly do you do and just kind of an overview of the aspects of your daily job. 

Gage

OK so a lead process engineer, can you know I work in the paper industry and that can be, you know, if you see ten different process engineers for 10 different companies, there’s probably some differences between all of them. But a lot of what? I do is, you know. We make tissue and towels. You know that you use every day in your life and the manufacturing process. For that I’m the technical lead for that in my area, so if there’s any issues that that we have. You know, on a day-to-day process wise basis then I am in charge of you know making sure that we troubleshoot and resolve those issues. Logistically, and I have a lot of responsibilities and making sure that you know we get the plant that I work at specifically is recycle fiber so we get a lot of you know office waste or waste from plants that make Chick-fil-A boxes and stuff like that and that we take all those trimmings and clippings that we get from them and turn them into the toilet paper and paper towels that that you use. So, making sure that we get those kind of waste fibers back and to where we could make pulp out of them and turn them. Back into tissue paper. It takes a lot of logistics to do that. Making sure you have the trucking, especially in today’s atmosphere with COVID. Do a lot of outlook planning and looking forward to the future making sure that. You know we are planning ahead for the demand, whether it be higher or lower for the coming years. And you know what does our process need to look like in order to support that? And also do a lot of improvement initiatives? You know, any kind of projects that go on inside. Of our mill that that require some technical engineering support. Usually, I have the lead on those, especially in in my department that I work in. The department I work in specifically, is what we call fiber. And that is taking that wastepaper and turning it into usable stock or pulp that you want to call it that is sent to the paper machines. Uh, this process engineering role. I worked at a facility that may contain a board or you know, the shipping boxes that you use. Cardboard boxes that you get from Amazon or FedEx that you see every day and I was a foreman I worked on. The paper machines there. So, I have a good bit of experience throughout most of the roles in a paper mill. 

Hollywood

So, do you feel that your undergrad helped you move into that, or was that something that you were already interested in before? 

Gage

Well, to be honest my so you talked about my internships. One of them was an internship action. I had a tissue mill. I didn’t have a lot of. Exposure to, you know the actual papermaking process at that point. And then one of my major co-ops was at a plant that made paint pigment. So before going into my first job and a paper mill, I really didn’t have a lot of exposure or really know what I was getting into. That’s kind of my experience with chemical engineering as a whole. You know, my uncle was a is a chemical engineer and I was like well. I like math and I like science, so maybe I’ll just go into that. And, uh. You know, it just happened to be coming out of the job market for a chemical engineer. While there’s many opportunities. Uhm, it’s hard to get in the door sometimes. So, you find a really good offer like I did on my first job, you know you just you just. Take it, you dive into it so. To answer your question, I did not have a lot of exposure to papermaking before going into it. 

Hollywood

Look, I’m curious if you were sitting around, you know doing those Pinterest DIY’s? You know making your own paper in the basement type situation? 

Gage

Well, I will say that my final project in chemical engineering was to design a paper mill. You know we had. I had a friend who she is now a. A doctor and another friend who is veered off from his chemical engineering degree. I think he does some IT work but so. You know you had US 3 building a paper mill and none of us knew exactly at all what we were doing. You know, if I were to go back and talk to myself when I was designing that paper mill, I’d probably slap myself in the head. You know what are? You doing this doesn’t look anything like we’re supposed to be. And there’s really not a lot that you know, undergrad really prepares. You put a build a foundation for you with the technical knowledge. Uh, but I mean until you get to start working and getting out into the world, you’re not really going to. You don’t really know what you’re doing until then. 

Hollywood

OK, so you said he designed when, I guess we’ll kind of jump ahead in my list of questions here, because what does a basic layout of the mill include? If you did design it? What did you design versus? What’s the differences? You found in the real world. 

Gage

What when I didn’t really take into account that is majorly important for paper mills? Uh, there’s a couple of things. So, what it takes to run a paper mill is water steam. And a source of raw material. The water you’re never going to find or not, any major paper mill. You’re not going to find any major paper mill that is not built on a body of water. 

They’re all going to be on rivers, you know, located off of big reservoirs, or you’re never going to find one that’s you. Know inside of a city. You know, steam heat is very important for the papermaking process, especially if you work in a virgin fiber mill. Which is you know, and other than, except you know, not like recycle fiber. But virgin fiber is where you’re taking, you know trees, pine trees and turning them into pulp. You know, cutting them up into chips and cooking them in what is basically a big pressure cooker where we call it digester. Steam is highly important in that you can’t break it down without. All that heat and with to make steam, you have to have power and power is. You know you can get it in multiple different ways the paper mill. Is designed to recycle. Everything is designed to recycle, so all the chemicals that you use in your digesting process, they get sent through boilers and transform back in. Through kilns and transform back into the materials that you need to circle back through the process and cook more chips into fiber. And you know, that’s something that you really don’t. Think about is, you know. People want to worry about. Not using paper, and because they’re killing trees, but paper mills are probably the biggest. Example of recycling out of any. Process that you could think of. And paper mills traditionally plant more trees than they cut. Down so using paper products actually helps the forestry industry and helps your forests. We take, you could even get. Paper mills that produce so much power that they sell some back to the grid, so they’re actually reducing. You know what coal power plants are making? Uhm, and you know what other sources that may not? Be as renewable. Uh, so I covered water coverage team raw materials. I’ve touched on it a little bit with the forestry industry is you know, like you say you’re not going to find a paper mill that’s built in the middle of the city. Uhm, not one that’s virgin fiber, so they’re going to be wanting to be right in the middle where every tree is so where they don’t have to go very far to get what they need to make what they need. You know the recycle plant that I work for now, it’s not really. It’s it is in a city. It’s off of a body of. Water, but it’s not. You know we don’t need the virgin fiber as much as we need recycled fiber, so my mill is located in a. Major port and a major Interstate intersection, and. You can get. Fiber from ship from air from truck. From railroad so that you know to bring back. To what you’re saying is. Is there’s a lot of, uh? You know those are the three basic things. When I built that in in college, I didn’t really think about. You know what was the basic things that you need. That it was kind of an overwhelming thing, but if you design a paper mill then that’s what those are. The three basic things you need to know is where can I get water? How can I get power to make steam and where can I get my raw material? And I gotta be able to ship it out? So having railroad and trucking available, those are metal parts. 

Hollywood

So, when you said that, uh, they sometimes sell back, how do you know how common that is? Selling back the energy? 

Gage

Actually, the facility I work at sells back. Energy to the grid. Uhm it. It’s, uh, it may not happen all the time. It really depends on the pool that you have at a certain. Time, are we? Using a lot of that power on site to make the products that we’re. Uhm, is it really cold? Is it really hot? You know the outside you know it, it just it makes a lot of difference but. Uh, to be able to be self-sustainable on your power grid and or to be able to sell back. No, it is not that uncommon. 

Hollywood

I was just curious ’cause you were mentioning the electricity. I guess we could count as one of the industries involved in the process and then you were mentioning forestry was involved in a way. Uh, was there any others that you feel like really affect the overall process of papermaking? Like I’m not sure if our listeners know a lot about the process involved. 

Gage

Let me let me scale it back so you can make it. A little more understandable. So, you. I’ll, uh, I’ll go with the one that I work. At now, uh, it’s recycled fiber. So, you know you take, we get bales I don’t know. If you ever go. Uh to Dollar General and you you’ll see on the side of the building. Sometimes they have these, uh, these balers where they put all those cardboard boxes or. Places, or you know like shred it and that company that you know they come and shred all your paperwork at your office. They take that stuff, and they bail it up and they sell it to companies like mine. Uh, we take those, and you know, with some chemicals, and like I said, water, a lot of water, paper mills use millions of gallons of water a day. But like I said, a lot of its recycled so that you’re not impacting your environment as much, but you take those chemicals, water, heat. And you turned it into pulp. That pulp is then sent to a paper machine, so it’ll usually it’s mostly water. It’s probably 3 to 5%. That fiber that pulp. Uhm, if you ever did Papier-mâché. Whenever you were in in school. You know they take in mix of the water and then you stick it to that surface. Well man, you’re sticking it to. Uh, this large machine with fabrics on it that you know conveyor belts that carry it that allow water to drain through. You know, as you would with Papier-mâché, and let that stuff dry, it gets hard. With these machines it’s pressed sent through dried. And it comes out in the sheets of paper or tissue. That you. Then roll you know specifically with. You know? Tissue paper. Right? You know, bath tissue. You roll it up and that gets sent to some winders. Is what they’re called and that’s where they convert it from. You know these large rolls that are probably 3 to 3 to 5 tons that come off of paper machines and they unwind them and cut them down into and wind. Them onto small. Cardboard rolls you know that you and cut them up. Like you’d see in your in your grocery store. That you buy and use at home. For the other process, the virgin fiber process that’s. That’s you. You know very similar you except you have the part where you’re making the pulp from wood chips. Like I said, you cook them down and basically big. Pressure cooker that breaks them down and screen you screen out all the bad stuff. Stuff that won’t cook down all the knots and paper. I mean in your wood, and you know, go. Through the same process and roll. It up and then they. For boxes they send it to converting lines that will. Do it and fold it up into the boxes that you see and that you ship your packages in every day. To answer your question, I know. 

Hollywood

That that that does answer my question. That sounds like you need a lot of space. 

Gage

Oh yes, uh, you need huge amounts of space the machine. That I was on. At the 1st. You know, at the containerboard mill, which containerboard is for the cardboard boxes. That machine was probably about a football field long. So, it’s these are not. This is not small equipment. It’s, you know, it’s dangerous. There’s a lot of safety aspects that go into it. You know to make sure that everything is fast moving. So, safety is vital. Part of our industry. And make sure that people go home safe. When they’re working with equipment like this. But you do need a lot of space. The mill that I’m at now used to. Be a virgin fiber bill. And make their own pulp. So, I mean, they’ve since torn a lot of that equipment down that fed all the several paper machines that we have. And there’s just huge swaths of empty space that we have in this facility. So, it takes large amounts of space. 

Hollywood

So, when you reduce is if you like tear it down. Can you just reuse it or is there like a shelf life like I know? Some bacteria can’t get. In like once it’s infected in the Earth you can’t use this space anymore for like so many years or something like that. 

Gage

No, it’s not really a I mean, uh, we’ll say you know, a lot of people. They think of paper mills, and they think of smelly and like you don’t want to drive by them ’cause you’re gonna smell all these bad smells. You know you may be thinking, oh, we said they use millions of gallons of water. It’s terrible for the environment, but uh? No, there’s a lot of environmental practices that go into. Containing everything that comes out of a paper mill, so you know you, you talk about what things you want to take in mind when you’re constructing a paper mill. A lot of them every building that has some kind of process going on, it’s going to be contained. So, you’re going to have. A process sewer. That everything that has a potential to impact the environment in a negative way. They should be forced to flow into these process sewers. That way it flows to, you know, a wastewater treatment plant there. Major part of facility paper mills and most facilities. That make anything. Are going to have big wastewater treatment plants. Yeah, you know, whenever you try to send that all those millions of gallons of water back into the river, you want to make sure it’s treated. Treated well and then. You don’t impact the environment. Or like I forgot. Right? Yes, that, and then so you have process sewers. But then you also have storm drain sewers, so you know it. It rains over a paper mill just like anywhere else. And you want to. Make sure that you can separate out as much of that. As possible, so we have rainwater sewers that collect. You know, specifically rainwater and air conditioning condensate. You know that’s just diverted away and used. You know, sent back into the environment like Norm. But now there’s not really any kind of you know, radioactive issues with paper mills that would. That would cause you. To not be able to use land. It’s really just up to the company and how they want to evolve. You know, we talked a lot about Outlook planning. It takes some definite evolution to keep up with the current environment that you’re living in. 

Hollywood

There’s a fair amount of urban planning, which is something a lot of my architect-based listeners probably are more familiar with. You need to plan out in advance where you’re going. 

Gage 

You definitely want to have, especially if you know. I’m sure they all talk about land costs. This is probably a major thing when you talk about development. You’re not going to find a large paper mill. In an area with really high land cost, I mean just because it takes so much land. To build one properly. But at the same time. You will find. You know I can’t be positive or 100%, but I couldn’t imagine that there’s a lot of architects that are involved in building. Paper mills or manufacturing facilities, just. They’re probably mostly built by engineers and engineers mostly want to just make things work. So, they don’t give enough space to do something. They’ll find a way to fit it in I mean, it’s kind of badmouthing my own profession, but-

Hollywood

I did ask you once to look over a drawing and you told me that there should be a straight line from point A to point B. 

Gage

That’s right, I don’t want to walk extra distance. 

Hollywood

So, I guess given that I would have to say my next question is, if it was designed by an architect and if you had the chance to sit down over a cup of coffee. Is there any shortcomings or anything in particular you would want to make sure that they knew about if they were going to design? Or maybe for our students who listen? I know we have a couple still in school listening that. If they got the chance, what would they need to do. 

Gage

You know I, I thought about. This question, yeah, not really specifically as you asked it, but, uh, you know when you first asked me if I wanted to do this. And I, I thought. About exactly what I said a minute ago, but I don’t really. Think there’s a lot of architects that are really involved. One thing that. That I would say. If you were going into a project like. This is too. Uhm, and I think we have the problem too as engineers when we design and put in projects that we don’t get enough input from our operators, you know the blue-collar everyday guys that that are going to be there at 2:00 o’clock in the morning running this equipment. And you know, dealing with. Uh, what is there and, uh? Having input from those guys, you know we focus a lot on Lean 6 Sigma, which you probably don’t talk about that as much in architecture, but you mentioned. Uh, I told you once. I want you I want a straight line from point A to point B. Well, those operators want that same thing too, ’cause they don’t want to go from. You know, they don’t want to carry something. From 500 feet away and. Go down a path that is got a lot of waste area and increase the time it takes when to do it, so you know if you were ever asked to design something like this. You know, think about it like. What is what can we do to make it smarter, faster and create opportunities for? Operators to make less mistakes when they’re running their process. That’s something that you know I battle with every day trying to make sure that we do when. We put projects in getting that input ’cause I don’t do it every day like they do, you know I work there, and you know I put in equipment, and you know, help troubleshoot issues, but I don’t. I’m not there at 2:00 AM to really struggle with with what’s there and how it’s been put in. 

Hollywood

I think that segues really nicely into my last two questions, which are influenced with my, they’re very. They’re influenced pretty strongly by my understanding and background with paper mills, because I have some family that lived outside of a paper mill for a very long time until they passed away and so like when we used to visit, the ash would bring down and I remember I had no clue what it was. I just thought it was like the coolest form of like warm snow is what I thought it was when I was a little kid and it was until I got older that I finally, you know, put it all together and me. What was going on and my parents told me. Uhm, but. Being around the community that was centered around a paper mill, I guess that was another thing I wanted to ask. You so if since you have worked with a couple different locations. Is there any difference from like just your day-to-day interactions with the level of community engagement from location to location? Not like badmouthing a particular area for like. Being involved, but you said it’s normally rural, not really in the urban areas, so does a lot more of the local community have jobs directly centered there or is it kind of scattered? 

Gage

I’ll say that. Yeah, I I’ve uh. I worked for I’ve worked for two very large paper mill paper companies. One of them, the first one I worked at. You know I’ve visited, and I know people that have lived where a couple of them have closed down. Uh, my actually live in a city where, uh? A previous company in line at their mill had closed here and there’s. The paper mills, like you say they’re all in rural locations, and they’re usually the lifeblood. Of that community, you know you talk about. And though you’re warm snow. That that you saw when you were a kid. A lot of things have changed since around that time, environmental. Impact of paper mills has gone down drastically as we learn the impacts of the byproducts that are form. You won’t see that ash raining down. Had a paper mill now if you do its isolated incidents and it probably never leaves the parking lot. I have found it on my car before, but the smell is very much reduced. That’s just a case of as I say, scrubbing the steam and release that you have from the mill. But, uh. Environment just thinking about it in terms of, uh, socioeconomic impact, there’s. 

Many people that I’ve worked with in these mills that that their parents worked there and retired their grandparents had worked there and retired there. These mills these paper mills have been feeding these families for generations. Even back then when they had that warm snow coming. Down on their houses and their cars they are probably. Didn’t care because. They that was their bread and butter. That’s where they, uh, these jobs are. Way more high paying than any blue-collar job you could get at McDonald’s or Dollar General or Walmart. I mean I; I think. I know of mills and like I said, have closed down. And it just completely tears apart of community. People leave and move out because they can’t support their families with the huge reduction of jobs in the area. And reduction of pay. So that they’re, they’re like I said, the lifeblood of these communities. For community outreach. A lot of them a lot of the mills, both the meals that I’ve worked at. No, get back with United Way they really push United Way a lot too. Uh, and those united ways. Organization that they give back to the local community. And dumb I particularly worked at one of my co-ops. We did science fairs we would. You know, sponsor science fairs and sponsor judges for them for the local communities we give back. You know the last company I worked with, you know, being such a small area, they gave back to the schools like actually wrote them checks for them to be able to pay for equipment that they needed. So, uhm. Like I said, we. 

Uhm, we know there is an environmental impact. I won’t deny that of a paper mill, but for socio economically and just economically, they are fantastic. For a community. 

Hollywood

Do you think that the this is just a random last-minute question that I was thinking of while you were saying this? Do you think that more? Groups across the country are going to their firms across the country are going to be switching to the recycled versus the virgin fiber. 

Gage

There is a large shift, not just because of a not just because. It is seeming more ethical, but because of the price, I mean it’s way cheaper to use recycled fiber than it is virgin fiber. It’s and the virgin fiber are much better quality to be able to make better quality products, but in terms of price, it’s really unmatched. One problem with going to recycle fiber only. Is that it’s? Especially with COVID it has become. More and more difficult. To source this recycled fiber. I mean, think about it. You’ve got. You know from shred it you’ve got less. People going to work. You know they’re not in their offices, so they’re not using an office paper. They’re not using it. The normal materials that they normally use. Then you know we live off of and, uh, recycled milk to be able to purchase and make more product out of so. Well, I do. I mean, it’s there’s going to. There is a shift, I mean there’s definitely the more recycled fiber you can use, the better. There’s going to be a limit just based on consumer usage. 

Hollywood

I never really thought about how bovid would impact your day to day, especially with operating machinery. Cause we speak about mills, and we think of lots of space and. A lot of area just trendy in history. When you’re processing something. But I imagine with even though you probably do. Have a lot of safety requirements for masks with the chemicals and I imagine that would still make it more difficult to maintain the equipment. Uh, with enough people and spacing and things like that. 

Gage

Well, absolutely I mean, there’s you know this this equipment is not, you know you. You can’t just come off the street and know how to run it. So, you know with people being out for COVID or you know which happens, you know you. You can be as safe as you can want to be, but. There’s going to be people that you know. Contract COVID and they’re out quarantining and dumb. You know you. Fall short, we’ve had equipment that we can’t run that night or that day because we just don’t have. The manpower for it. So, it’s definitely impacted us in more ways than one. 

Hollywood

I guess I need to apologize. One of my listeners told me they’ve only stay with me as long as I don’t mention COVID at all. So I guess I just lost them.  I’m sorry guys. 

Gage

Oh, I really I ruined that, didn’t I? 

Hollywood

We did, we did. 

Gage

I mean it, I’m sorry it’s just there’s not really anything that it hasn’t impacted, so it’s hard to. It’s hard to say that. It’s hard to go through something, uh, you know, conversation like this and not mention it. 

Hollywood

I think balancing the realities and then like the ideals like obviously we would love to have you know nothing but completely 100% recycled. No trees cut down ever in the entirety of life. But then we also have to balance like you were saying. The economics people who’ve been like their entire families depend upon the mills, like you can’t just shut them. All down and throw them all away immediately without creating anything new would create a giant void job, employment, and opportunities. 

Gage

And don’t forget like I said these the, uh the wood that that is harvested for these processes are. They’re farmed basically. I mean these people own these, it’s not. You know we’re not going to the rainforest, and you know removing the home from this toucan where we’re cutting down. Uh, mostly southern pine, and so you see a lot of these mills are located in southeast. There’s plenty of them in Tennessee that that you know there’s a lot of pine trees and. That’s the best source of material. For virgin fiber that. You can use so. You know in every tree that we cut down it’s not just clearing the land and leaving it like said it’s farm. So, these trees are replanted. Uh, so that this. My end can be reused. It’s not you know, just clear cutting. 

Hollywood

OK, well then thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you taking the time to stop what you’re doing and talking it through with us. 

But once again a big thank you to all my listeners! I know I say this every week, but please: Please rate and review. If you liked it, loved it, hated it, let me know. I love feedback, and hearing from everyone, and more importantly, sparking conversation.  We again have a Facebook page and private group, both of which are under the same name: Architecture, Coffee, & Ink, which is again, pretty young. https://architectureink.design.blog/, is the website,  Everything will be linked in the show notes.  I will be posting the transcript and some images on the blog later in the afternoon, so please keep an eye out for that, but as always,

May your coffee mugs be full, and your ink wells never run dry.

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